HOW TO WORK WITH THE MATRIARCHS with painter Barbara Campbell Thomas
Barbara Campbell Thomas had a long-established painting practice when, about a decade ago, her mother bought her a sewing machine. Little did she know, but that gift provided her the perfect missing piece to her creative practice.
What draws me to Barbara’s work is the balance between tautness and texture. Her stretched and pieced canvas quilt works pushes back an “all or nothing” perspective on genre. Her work is naturally generative and generous, creating expanses for so much.
In this SEAMSIDE conversation, Barbara and I explore:
① the value of a regular sketchbook practice (even if you don’t draw)
② what even is abstraction
③ how you can detect your matriarchs at work
WHY LISTEN TO THIS EPISODE?
This conversation with Barbara Campbell Thomas explores the profound connections between painting and textiles. Listeners will hear how personal history, especially the influence of matrilineal figures, molds her work, making this episode a compelling narrative about identity, creativity, and artistic expression
REFLECTION PROMPT
Barbara discusses the concept of 'matrilineal abstraction'—how does your own family or cultural heritage influence your creative work? Are there traditions or skills that have been passed down to you that shape your work?
THREE ARTISTS YOU SHOULD FOLLOW
① Nour Jaouda, Libyan textile artist
② Teresa Lanceta, Spanish weaver
③ Diana Guerrero-Maciá, painter and textile artist
→ Get your free trial to the QUILTY NOOK
→ Claim your free copy of 10 THINGS I WISH I KNEW BEFORE I STARTED QUILTING
→ See images and more at the EPISODE WEBSITE
→ Nominate a GUEST for SEAMSIDE
→ Follow Zak on INSTAGRAM
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Okay, please tell us your full name and tell us what you had for breakfast this morning.
Barbara Campbell Thomas and I had a bowl of oatmeal with bananas for breakfast.
That looks good to me. I think we're ready. If at any point You need a break. You need to go to the bathroom. Happy to edit. So don't even worry about it. All right. This is, I do, I have an editor who goes through and does all this stuff for me. So she'll make you sound like a genius. Hi, Okay. That's awesome.
Megan listening in the future.
Okay, here we go. Welcome to scene. Welcome to Seamside, Barbara.
Thank you. I am absolutely thrilled to be here.
I'm thrilled to have you because we have multiple points of connection. Our friend, Paolo Rao. Sweetheart. Also you teach at the alma mater of my partner, the [00:01:00] University of North Carolina, Greensboro.
Yes. Yep. So those are both very good connections.
I'm happy to have him with you. Happy to have him with you. Now I heard you recently on a podcast sound and vision, which is wonderful. And if folks want to go kind of dive into your bio and things like that, I would highly recommend to go listen to that sound and vision episode, but I was furiously writing notes as you were talking, cause I have so many things that I want.
To unpack with you about what you said. And so I think one of the first places before we jump into all that though, Barbara, can you tell us where you are right now? Set the scene for us.
Sure, so I am actually sitting on the floor in my house, which is located in a little tiny town called, actually I don't even think it's a town, it's that small, called Climax, North Carolina. So, I'm in a
country, you very well may. Uh, so, [00:02:00] out in the countryside, it is, it is, Deep spring here in the South.
And so everything is in bloom and it's just a really beautiful morning here. It's quiet because my son is off at school and my husband is off doing whatever he's doing. I have been up since before five because I have a deadline looming and actually, I know it sounds, it sounds crazy, but early mornings are For me, a real time of spaciousness.
And so I like to get up early because I go to my studio. Uh, I work on painting and that's what I was doing this morning. And it's been a morning of some really nice things like painting. I got some walking in, did have to do a little bit of work, uh, and just really thought about this conversation too.
Oh, I think we're primed and ready to go then.
I think so.
thing I heard you [00:03:00] say, Barbara, that conversation on sound and vision is that when you make a quilt, if you make a quilt to get the quote, right, you do it as a painter Mm hmm.
and I'm wondering. How does a painter make a quilt? Because I feel like this might be a good kind of doorway, entryway into your, your practice.
You know, that, that was one of these things that kind of fell out and it, when I said, cause I listened to it later and I thought, Oh, that is, that's such a particular thing. Um, this notion of when I make a quote, I make it as a painter. And I think it really connects to me to this, this way that we.
acquire our knowledge, like the knowledge that is super particular to who we are as people. Um, and knowledge isn't quite the right word, I would say, maybe in, in, in the context of this, [00:04:00] but it's like, as we gather kind of what it is to be who we are, uh, I think that there's a lot that goes into that for each of us that's so particular.
And for me, painting is this enormous, kind of grounding touch point for my life. It's this, it's this, it was this entryway into a kind of, I don't know, light bulb moment of like, suddenly when I learned to paint, the world made so much more sense. And so, so it's like, because of that, I can't help but Like I'm, I'm, I can't help but take that understanding now and it, and it carries through like literally everything that I do.
And so, and so part of that too, for me, um, was like a really particular understanding of the material of paint and a real love of the material of paint. And [00:05:00] this, this sense that that material had a kind of vastness to it. And so I think that's, for me, that's almost like an orientation. And some people, you know, I found that in paint.
Some people find it in other media, but so it's like, I, I can as easily drop that understanding as I can, you know, like my own skin, you know? So I, so I, I carry that with me in anything that I do when it comes to making. And so, so when I learned to quilt. Um, it's like that knowledge just folded right on inside that sort of shell of, of painting, I would say.
And so now they're just sort of like woven together in, in a way that, um, that just, I, I have to believe is, is particular, you know, and just as, just as I think that for anyone, um, you know, say making a quilt who is, I don't know, say a yoga [00:06:00] practitioner or, or, uh, You know, has something else in there, you know, I think that we care like that.
These are the things that make what we do so precise.
Yeah, those, those moments of overlap and the Venn diagram of all the tools and forms of expression that we gather as we move through the world.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I like to think that of that, there is a certain imperative, like no pressure artist, but there is a certain imperative that you have a very particular skill set and you are the only person that can do that thing, right? That idea that lives in your head, you're the only person that can bring that into hmm.
And so again, no pressure, but let's get to work.
Oh, yeah. And I, I mean, I so believe that. I mean, that and the other part of this, I would say, you know, the other part of, of, of me [00:07:00] and, um, and I think so much who I am is, is. You know, I've been a teacher for many years, a teacher of artists, and I have the experience of making work for many, many years, but then I also have the experience of, of working with artists and teaching artists and just watching them and absorbing them and watching so many young people kind of come into who they are as an artist, which is this truly extraordinary thing to witness.
And so now, and I've been doing that for about 20 years. And so now I, I mean, this will connect to what you're saying, but like, I have this sense and I say this to them, you know, that every single one of us comes, you know, into this world and we have this like incredibly precise, specific, particular vision thing that we're supposed to say that we're supposed to bring to the world.
And. You know, it's like, it's our, it's our, it's like our duty to do that. And that very thing is the way that [00:08:00] we connect to each other because we all have it, you know?
right. I'm really vibing with the word vocation recently. Like the duty that you mentioned that the vision that we all carry that individual individual singular vision for me I'm calling it vocation and it feels pretty good at some point later in our conversation Barbara I want to circle back in here how you feel like 20 years of being an educator has influenced your own personal practice So let's make sure we work our way back there too, because I'm curious about that you so you said when you make a quilt you make it as a painter and And You learned to quilt from your mom, right?
When you found quilting, you said that felt like the missing piece for your practice. Can you talk about the phenomenon of the missing piece?
Sure, sure. So, and I can also just relay a little bit of the, of the narrative of that, of that moment because it, it very much was a [00:09:00] kind of light bulb moment for me as an artist. And so, so my mother as you know I know this is a narrative that many people have but she is a quilter and she actually came relatively late to quilting she's picked it up in her retirement as um, As some, as some do.
And so she just had this sense that it would be something that, or at least learning to sew would be something that, that, that would be good for me or that. I don't know. She had this sense. And so she bought me a sewing machine once for my birthday.
And this was about when,
this is about 10 years ago. So, so relatively recently, she, so she bought me this sewing machine and it wasn't something I had asked for, uh, but I was delighted to receive it.
And. in this sort of busyness of life, of course, the sewing machine kind of just sat. And I think she knew that that was going on. So she said to me, well, I'm going to come down and I think under the auspices of coming to visit her grandson. [00:10:00] She, uh, she came down and she said, all right, I'm going to teach you how to make a quilt.
And so she came down, showed me how to use my sewing machine. Um, and we made a little tiny, you know, kind of lap quilt in a day. So she showed me how everything, how everything works. And I, uh, it was, it was this, You It was just such a delightful experience, of course, having that experience with her. And then particularly the, for me, the, uh, the action of, of piecing, which was completely intuitive, um, for me was like this, it was, it was like, there was this connection between, because we were doing this inside my house, there was a connection to my studio outside.
It felt like the same thinking, it felt like the same orientation, uh, except the material was different. And so it was like, I mean, I had this sense that it was what [00:11:00] I had been looking for, and I didn't even know I had been looking for this. But the other thing that started to happen for me, because I'm an abstract painter, And, you know, I went to, I was educated, you know, I went to, it was, went to art school, all of that, um, you know, took art history classes and knew pretty quickly that I was an abstract painter. And the degree to which there were so few abstract painters in the history that I was taught was, was just so notable to me and has been a real, you know, it's been a, it's been a factor in my life as an artist. And so I realized that. you know, just a hundred years ago, I, I probably would not be making abstract paintings.
I would have been making quilts, you know, so that was the other thing is that like there was this sense of, um, just given the nature of, of history and culture and, you know, all of this, um, that's what I would have [00:12:00] been doing and somehow that somehow that that felt really impactful to me as an artist.
And so, so I, um, very much felt like suddenly this, this thing that I, I had been waiting for sort of arrived, you know, this sort of knowledge being passed on. Yeah, and textiles for you, I mean, feels transcendent, like through time, right. Connecting you through multiple generations and also connecting you to other people doing similar work today.
that's, I think that's how it felt kind of out of time.
Yeah. Do you still have that quilt that you made with your mom? That
I do. I do. Actually, it is in my studio. It's, uh, it's a cushion. It's, it's actually I've, it's folded up and it's the cushion that I use at my sketchbook [00:13:00] table. So I sit on it every day.
I love it. I love it. Cause sometimes first quilts get away from us, you know, because we might not realize how crazy we're going to be for quilting. You know, that's how we give it away.
Yeah.
Yeah. My first quote was a baby quilt for a good friend. And I reached out to him maybe about five years ago to see if he still had My first ever quilt.
He's like, oh, I think we lost it in the move. And I was like, uh huh likely story likely story Adam What's interesting to me is that Excuse me that you haven't left painting for textiles Right, like you're, you're holding both the hands. You're, you're in a happy balanced relationship with both of them. What does working with textiles allow you to do in your practice that in hindsight paint wasn't giving you as [00:14:00] much access to?
Well, it's so interesting because it, you know, in a way it's very, very practical, which is, which is, um, You know, so as a painter, and I still, and this isn't always what defines a painter, but I still, you know, stretch essentially a canvas over stretcher bars and then apply paint. Um, and so that initial, that initial substrate, which is, you know, most often cloth, typically is one big piece of fabric.
And at least, you know, that's how it's been taught. And it's so funny because there are definitely I would say notions of kind of painterly purity connected to that notion of like the unblemished or the uncut surface of a painting. Um, and so, and I realized that, and I, and I, it's interesting to think back on this now, like I realized that I didn't want to, I didn't want to accept that initial [00:15:00] layer as a given, like I didn't want it.
It's sort of being just one piece of fabric wasn't, wasn't enough or it wasn't working. And so literally learning how to piece was the means by which I could just make that initial layer, whatever I needed it to be. And, and so that's, that's become foundational. I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's foundational to the practice at this point.
And it is, just as enjoyable and immersive and, uh, important, I would say, and act as, as adding the paint, as painting. Yeah, the surface. My friend Heidi likes to complicate things. So it allows you to complicate the surface, surface, but to do it in a way that Feels highly intentional, Yes,
right? Like that little piece of patchwork didn't just slip in there by accident.
Right, right. Absolutely. [00:16:00] Yeah. And it's also, you know, and I think because the way that I tend to work is You know, fairly intuitively, like sometimes I'll, I'll have a, maybe a very, very loose basic structure that I'm thinking about. And, and there is a way in which just, uh, the process itself is so much a means of discovery and, and, and the painting, you know, the, the direction of the painting really gets set through that initial layer.
of my, some of the most interesting images that I feel like you post about your work are when you share the backside, the inside of the canvas, because then that's where. The textile folks can step up and be like, I see what's happening here. From the front, it can be a little bit, you know, you leave a scratch in our heads in a fun way.
Like, is this paint, is this fabric
Yeah.
you, there's this really [00:17:00] interesting tension in your work between like tautness yet still maintaining texture. Right? Like you haven't stretched it so far out that there's not texture to your work.
Mm hmm.
And then you flip over to the back of the canvas and that's where you see the seam side, if you will, right?
The seam allowance is poking out. And that to me is also equally beautiful and fascinating.
Yeah. Yeah. And that feels to me right now like an open question because those, the seam side is important and it, it is an important way for people to see how the work is made and. Uh, you know, I've, I've at times put some of that on the front and haven't quite figured out how to work with that at the moment.
So, so it is one of these things in the practice that, yeah, it feels like an open question that I just kind of been pondering. You know, what, what is the presence of that? How does it [00:18:00] relate? And I think, you know, you bring up some of the, the ways in which, um, there's, can be a kind of confusion or a not a not full clear understanding of what what they are initially and I've had that I've had people say that Uh, and i've had people when they see them in person kind of express some real surprise as to what they look like because they they present in one way over photographs.
Um, and actually recently, uh, you know, I had a breakthrough. I have someone who helps me with the photography and he said, you know, I realized that actually I have to photograph your work the way I photograph sculpture in order for it to start to be perceivable what's going on. So that, and that makes so much sense.
And
sculpture, meaning maybe from different angles, closeups, like what was he referencing there?
he was, I think, really referencing the way, I think initially he was. in a way kind of diffusing the [00:19:00] lighting so that he was minimizing the texture, and when he started to change the lighting to allow for more of the surface texture, because there is a lot, because there's, there's the sewn aspect, there's the painted aspect, and then there's also collage that's added.
So there's this way in which there are all
embellish, sometimes you add buttons and such, right? Like some of them really get off the surface.
yeah. So there, so that, so all of that is, it's also still a question for me in terms of, you know, the ways in which I can more adequately or sort of accurately convey some of that.
Yeah. It's interesting because I often think of. Like a lot of my pieces are wall pieces, right? They're meant to be hung on the wall. And so I've had pieces that I really did not finish the back, right? Because in my mind, I think, oh, if I were a painter, no one would even think about flipping the canvas over and looking at the back side.
No one would even care. That's not where [00:20:00] the value of the object is. But quilting is Looking back on those pieces where I didn't finish the back, they just feel unfinished to me for my practice. And I'm like, I think it's because for me, quilts are sculptural objects that need to live in three dimensional space, even if they spend most of their time hanging on a wall.
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense to me. Absolutely. Well, because there's something about, and this is, and this is actually, Something I'm also kind of, it's also another kind of question in my studio, because I'm in the midst of working on some pieces that are not stretched, and they are so hard for me to understand right now.
Like, I don't know how to think about them. Uh, but I still have this compulsion to make them. And I think it is because, because with, when they're stretched, that edge of the canvas, is it's just like this magical thing. It's this, [00:21:00] it's this, I always, I always think of the edge of a painting as being like this place of possibility and also like connected to the history of like kind of painting as illusion.
Like there, there are things about that, that, uh, that sort of delve into more than the material itself. And so I don't yet know, like, how does the edge. How does the edge translate when it's not stretched? So that, that's the thing that I'm sort of not sure how to deal with, but like your point about like, so now like, and you immediately, and that's the thing is that I've immediately started thinking, well, how will the, how will it back be dealt with?
Because I don't know, I don't know that I can just leave it. So there's something in that we could probably, or someone, someone could write some kind of like really interesting, like very theory, heavy essay about that. I'm sure.
that I would read and not understand at
Right, right, right. Mm
It makes [00:22:00] me think of recently I was talking with Coulter Fussell, who definitely treats. Well, no, I don't want to say that. I feel like she treats her pieces equally sculptural and painterly.
Um, but she recently made some frame pieces, which is not typical for her work, right? She loves that edge, like you were saying, where the piece meets the wall and what can happen in that, that kind of liminal space, right? But she wanted to frame this certain collection because Let's be honest, there's commercial, like buyers understand what to do with framed objects.
Right? So if you're making work to pay the bills, consider framing it. Right.
Yeah.
But she didn't want frames that really took away from the work. So she made these really skinny little wooden frames that just barely obscure. And she she's living with it. She's, it's what you would call a question in Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Similarly, it makes me think in my own practice that my. [00:23:00] Pieces are venturing more and more towards natural silhouettes. Like I will start a lot with old quilts or even just like industrial, like, you know, commercial quilts I found at the thrift store or something, and then applique quilt tops on top of those old quilts with the intention at the beginning of like cutting it off or like squaring it up air quotes. I find that by the time I get to the end of the piece, I'm so in love with the way, like the old quilt kind of sticks out from the back and how the old quilt and the new pieces combined. Suggest a whole new silhouette. And I'm like, I can't, I can't hack this up. I'll leave it the way it is.
Yeah.
But those edges, those silhouettes
Those edges. Yeah.
piece.
Yeah. Yeah. I hear you.
Okay. I'm checking my notes. Cause I'm writing down questions as they come up. Uh, all right. [00:24:00] One, one thing you said in the conversation that I really am excited to hear more about because you kind of glossed over it on Sound of Vision was this idea of matrilineal abstraction. And you said you grew up in a home, you were surrounded by matrilineal abstraction. Barbara, please tell us more. What does that mean?
Yeah. This is something that I've kind of, I guess, I don't know that we could say that I've coined this, but, you know, connected to this. So this understanding of who I am as an artist, as an abstract painter, again, in response to, and I talked a little bit about this on Brian's podcast, this sense of like, Okay, well, if I did, if I don't see, if I wasn't sort of taught a history that included me, um, or included women, um, and if I was, if I didn't sort of have, in a way, a kind of [00:25:00] strong history of, say, women making abstract paintings, then I just determined that I needed to find that history for myself.
And so, So that's been kind of, so, so in a way, like, yeah, what is, what is my own art history, and who, who are the, who are the people who make that history, that art history up? And I think of late, and so I, you know, I've been, and there's so many people who comprise that art history, and so many, um, I don't know.
Aspects and materials and, um, you know, that aren't even necessarily art per se, but somehow have found a place. And I think of late, I have really been thinking about, well, you know, what are, why am I so drawn to abstraction? And one of the things that I've really realized is that it's, it was so much in my home and it was so much in my home.
Through the things that were made by the women [00:26:00] in my family. And in particular, I, in the last year have become incredibly fascinated with this rug, this rag rug that was made by my great, great, my great, great grandmother, and her name was Edna Otto Bame, and she made these rugs out of cut up old coats and a couple.
ended up with my mom and they were in the house and we used them, you know, we walked on them. I, you know, I remember the one that I have right now. It was in this little alcove sort of hallway that we, you know, walked through countless times. And so, so things like that, and there are a lot of things like that.
Um, she also made these. And I, you know, I haven't yet really looked into if this was like a thing that was done in the 40s or something in the 1940s and earlier, but she collected a ton of [00:27:00] buttons and she made these really elaborate arrangements of them. And so we had those as well. My mother framed those and those are in the house and they were these things that were, I just was fascinated by them and they were about geometry.
They were about color, texture, surface. they were made, they were adamantly made by hand, you know, they were, they were made in the fabric of her life. You know, she ran a country store. She was a farmer. Um, and yet she also had this incredible output as a creative person. And of course, all of that necessarily had to be fit within, within the rhythms of the life that she was living.
And so that All of that, like everything I've just laid out in a way is kind of a template for my own life. You know, this sort of the fascination with geometry, color, texture. And since, you know, my children arrived now [00:28:00] 19 years ago, this way in which a practice is fit within the rhythms of a life. And so here was this amazing example of that, you know, literally in my own history.
And I then, you know, thought, well, what if art history could get to the place where there was room for these kinds of, these kinds of people, you know, like someone who so clearly is impactful on the, on the work that I have done. And so, so this notion in a way of, and also because I think so often abstraction is at least, is often taught as being so separate from life and being kind of I don't know, living off in this sort of like lofty, like not create, not connected to just like the mess of what it is to be human.
And I've always, I've always, that's never worked for me, you know, like that definition of abstraction, just, it's never sat well, it hasn't felt accurate. [00:29:00] And, you know, once again, I think for me to, to figure out why meant that I had to you. define it newly. And so, like, I want to know, like, what, how is matrilineal abstraction?
Like, it's not just something that is, that is in my life. Like, how does it play out in other people's lives? Like, what might be the impact of these kinds of, of objects? surfaces that have inhabited so many of our homes that have influenced potentially so many people. I don't know. What's the place of that?
You know, what's, how does that fit within, within the kind of constellation of artists thinking in this world right now? So that's, so that's for me, this notion of matrilineal abstraction is a, is a kind of broadening of the, of the definition of abstraction and a, and a real, I think, call to. To find these anchor [00:30:00] points in our, in our, in our personal histories and, and value those so that other people can value that in their own history.
I have so many more questions than I did five minutes ago, and we're going to get to them.
Good.
But it makes me think, you know, you listing off the matrilineal objects in your own childhood makes me think, what are mine?
Yeah. Wow.
first two things that come to mind, I'm like, Oh, that's so fascinating.
One is more of an image of my mom sitting at the kitchen table, practicing calligraphy, which she would do. You know, when you're right, when you're learning to write calligraphy, you just do a lot of strokes over and over and over because the idea is you got to do it a million times. So that appears graceful and effortless.
So there's this real kind of discipline. And grunt work that goes into something that looks graceful and effortless in the end. And I see that now in the way that I work as [00:31:00] well, which is a lot of it's kind of under the table under the radar. And what is seen publicly is the tip of the iceberg. You know, I also think the other matrilineal object, and this is a true object at this point, was when I was maybe About 15 years old.
My aunt, we all grew up on the same land together out in the country. My aunt was designing a mural of a mermaid for the art supply store that she worked at. And so this mural was floor to ceiling mermaid, as you can imagine. I think, Oh, that's so fascinating because You got scale here. Like I love huge wall size pieces.
Here's my aunt modeling for me big wall size pieces. My mom was working with text. I work a lot with text and my textile work. I'm like, Oh, okay. So you said light bulb moments. I think I just had light bulb moment.
Oh, I love it. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. But those are such, Aren't they? They're such, uh, they're such anchoring moments. Anchoring. You know, I [00:32:00] remember watching my grandmother arrange things on the walls of our house and I rem and I literally remember like the cadence of her body is that move through the space and the way that she put things on the wall and the space is in between.
And, you know, that sense of arrangement absolutely is something that comes into play in my own work.
And there's something almost mystical about that. Listening to you share that memory, right? That's not just her sticking something on a wall in any old place. No, she's, I'm imagining considering and making adjustments and nuances that you as a little person, as a young person, probably didn't understand why is she doing it just that way?
Why is one inch to the left different than one inch to the right?
I know. I know. She knew. She knew and she was always right. I mean, that was the thing is that I went, then I would look at how she would arrange the plate next to this wooden spoon. And somehow there's this consideration. I mean, it's all the things that, you know, we learned our first year, say, as a, as a young art [00:33:00] student, just, you know, and she was a phys ed major in college and yet there's like this.
This, um, this sense of that understanding that absolutely was real palpable to me in sort of un, un word, in like wordless ways.
Do you encourage your students to know their lineage, to know their own personal histories when it comes to the art that they're working on?
You know, I went so much, so much of my work as a teacher is talking one on one with students and getting to know who they are and through the, through the work that they make and the things that they show me. And so I always, when I start to recognize. Those kinds of inclinations or when they bring me things that are connected, say to family or past, I always encourage them to dig deeper.
I have not. And this, and this is interesting to me to think about, you know, I haven't really designed an entire assignment [00:34:00] explicitly about this, which I think would be really fascinating. So that's going to I want to, I want to do that assignment. Do you share it with me when you're done?
Okay. I will.
Why would you like, what's your elevator pitch? Huh, Barbara? Like when you say like, if a student were to say, well. Why is it important for me to know my, my artistic lineage I think it makes you, it helps you understand more fully who you are as an artist. And I think it helps you pinpoint these like, like we all have these like nuances as to who we are and why we do what we do. And I think sometimes those nuances, it's like, they're not even perceivable to us yet. And then you'll have a moment like, you know, you talking about.
watching your mother make those, make those marks as she was working with calligraphy, then you'll have a moment and you're like, [00:35:00] Oh my gosh, that's it. Like, that's why. And I, and so I just think that there are these ways in which I just think where our, our bodies are just like packed full of those kinds of experiences that have a yield in terms of the things that we make.
And so if we can, and I think that's a lifelong process kind of understanding all of that, but. I think as we can just give space for, for that knowledge kind of unfolding, I think we just figure out who we are more.
and who we are, especially like in the Western sense, often feels very atomized and individualized, mm-Hmm?
which I feel like can do, I'm sure it's got some perks, but I also feel like it sets us up for more work than may be necessary. Right. This whole idea of like finding your voice and discovering yourself, all of which is.
Important, but I would say that a lot of that work's already been done for [00:36:00] us if we reflect on our ancestors, how they moved through the world, because they gave us the programming with which we often move through the world.
yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's really true and I think. Um, I think it really helps us push against those, these, these notions, even of kind of isolation, you know, which I think is a really big thing, certainly for, like, I think about that for young artists going out into the world. And so often the things that make people stop working is this sense of isolation or that no one that, you know, this doesn't connect or this doesn't connect to the world at large.
But I think the more that you can kind of see that, yeah, that we're made up of, of Of so much that has come before us. And, uh, I just, I'm fascinated by that. It just, it, it just makes everything feel that much more endless.
A moment [00:37:00] ago, when you first started talking about the idea of abstraction, You said that there's this notion, there's this definition of abstraction that is very remote from like the personal experience, the lived experience, there's this, this idea that you want to push back on, you said that's not your definition, but you haven't shared with us what your definition is.
So what is at this point in time, Barbara Campbell Thomas's definition of abstraction as it appears in your work?
I think it is. That's such a great question. For me, abstraction is And, and, and literally engaging in abstraction on a daily basis in the making of this work, because that is what I feel like, you know, I'm doing. I'm engaging in a visual language that I can't put a name to, or I can't string together a series of words that, that sort of makes the picture of what I'm [00:38:00] making appear in your mind.
And, and there's a way in which. Engaging in an abstraction, you know, so persistently again for so many years, like for me is very much this kind of acknowledgement that there is more than what I can see, uh, that, that, that somehow my existence in, in, you know, in the world is, is is informed by way more than that, you know, and it's, it's informed through, of course, through touch, through the way that, you know, my body moves through space, uh, through experience, through memory, through pain, through, uh, you know, the things that have been difficult, through, I mean, You know, and I was thinking, I don't know why I was thinking about this morning, I think, cause I knew maybe that we would talk about abstraction and I, and I continue to think about [00:39:00] why is, why is it so important to me that I, that I work with languages of abstraction?
So I, you know, I, another, and this is very personal too, but I have an older brother who, um, has, you know, has, has throughout his whole life has just had a series of physical and mental disabilities and. For me, and he's older than me. So, so, so knowing that as a young person, like being a kid and, and, and not really knowing kind of why he felt different and what to do with that.
And also like knowing that that was kind of big, like these kinds of questions and not knowing how to, like, just not having the, the. the logic in a way to kind of grapple with, with things like this. I feel like at that moment, it's like, I knew that there was more there, like logic could only get you so far.
[00:40:00] And, um, and the easily answered question could only get you so far and that there, there, there had to be so much more. And so like that, so I feel like that. So for me, like there are ways in which. It's so, it's like very adamantly personal and, and, you know, it's very adamantly about like bodies that work and bodies that work differently and bodies that, um, that don't sit in the world the way the world wants them to.
And so what do we do with all of that? You know, I, I, I think, I think those kinds of sort of anchoring questions are so much for me connected to thinking about abstraction. Um, and that, you know, even just attempting to answer it, like, I feel like I've kind of gone on this like meandering sort of journey, um, and, and I, you know, could have a long way to go to, to keep thinking through it.[00:41:00] Well, it's a question of a lifetime.
Yeah.
had a pat answer, it wouldn't be an interesting question
Right. Right. And I wouldn't keep making this stuff. Yeah.
a really small collection. How do you, when you're working with students or somebody who would like to explore more abstraction in their work, do you have some kind of go to suggestions?
Cause I'm thinking also like in my work and I'm thinking of people at home listening, I. One of the things I love about text is it's the opposite of abstraction, right? Like it is hyper specific. I can use these little symbols that we all culturally agree on for the most part. And you can read them in a second, digest them in a second.
You'll feel something immediately. And like, it's a way of transferring one thought to the next. And the way I think of it is highly poetic. So, you know, the, [00:42:00] the way the text, the way the words come together, isn't necessarily logical, rational, uh, and what you might expect. So I'm trying to combine poetry with text, like really hit you. Now, the downside of that is that it, it could teeter on prescriptive, right? If one isn't careful to say, I want you to, I want the viewer to experience Like, I'm not trying to be prescriptive, so I'm always having to, like, dial it back a little bit. Um, all of that is to say, all of that's to say, so, someone like me who doesn't use a lot of abstraction in their work, who might be interested in incorporating some of that in their practice, do you have some go to tips or thoughts that you share with your Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, one of the things that, that I, and actually something that I do for [00:43:00] myself and my own practice is almost like, okay, well, let's, let's take, let's take reality or let's take, you know, things that are nameable letters, uh, you know, this drawing that you made of a tree or whatever.
Um, I mean, you know, because I also really love collage and so I'm a huge proponent of let's just cut that up and make it again, but in a different way. And that's something honestly I do a ton of and I do it a ton of with letters actually as well because like there is this way in which I'm fascinated with.
Well, let's make something that's letter like, but is not legible. And those, those are the kind, and those are kind of like games or um, oh, a bird just ran into the window.
Oh, poor
It's okay, it's okay, but it startled me. Anyway, so those are, those are the kinds of things that, uh, I just. They're like puzzles. So I often will have students do things like that.
Like let's just, [00:44:00] or let's, let's make a, uh, you know, a drawing where we're just trying to generate as many reds as we can invent, you know, and let's, we're not going to worry about, and let's just arrange them in swatches and then cut those up. And so I do a lot of this kind of like. Generating and then cutting up and then recombining and then cutting up and sort of through the process of like, almost like it's almost like generational.
It's like, let's go. Can we go like three generations from this? Like first, first layer, what do we have, you know, as we kind of move through so that, so because I, looking for through the multiple passes?
I am always looking for something that surprises me or something that I feel like I've not Quite seen or something that feels like it has a kind of, maybe a kind of visual agency, like say [00:45:00] through movement or certain rhythms, um, you know, those, so those are the things that, that often I, I will look for, and then sometime, and then the other great thing, I think, which is, um, hugely helpful is working with time.
And so. We'll do, you know, 10 minute drawings or five minute drawings or, um, you know, just working with here, take these shapes or take these materials and, um, you know, set the timer, just generate stuff. So anything really I'm super interested in anything that, you know, helps us get like to that different level of thinking that isn't just like sitting right on top.
Yeah, one of one of my favorite things that we've ever done on the note, you know, I've helped host this online community for textile artists and last June We had our first annual quilt race and this June we're gonna have our second annual and the whole idea is to make a quilt top in under an hour for the [00:46:00] reasons that you're Just saying like how can we ratchet up the pressure on ourselves so much that there is zero room for like Uh, piddling, right?
Like him and an all and just sitting around thinking, right. And it was, it was incredible to see the work that people came out with after an hour, because it, and some of it was all just like pinned down or whatever. I don't care. The idea though, is to just like open up something, unleash some kind of a beast that doesn't get to come out and play very Yes. And then you have to, on some level, you have to dispense with like, whatever your definition of what a quilt is. You know. And Cause it's not going to fit within that hour. And so, uh, so that kind of thing I just love because it just makes you think, Oh, okay, well wait, there are more definitions of quilting actually than this one.
And so how can I, how can I, so like, let's just find them. So that, that's, that's fascinating to me. I love that. It makes me really excited. [00:47:00] Okay.
sketchbook practice. You told us that you sit on your, the very first quilt that you ever made with your mom and you sit on that as you sketch. Can you share a little bit about your practice of sketching with us?
Okay. So that's also has a textile aspect to it. Uh, and that is that so, and this, you know, my, I, once again, this, this, this mother has been so, so critical for me in my practice. So she about probably about the same time that she taught me how to quilt started sending me these, these sketchbooks that she covered, you know, she, she kind of quilted these.
these covers and she would send these to me. And so then it started like another like birthday gift or something that she gave, sent me one of these and I loved it and, you know, filled it. And then she, you know, sent me another one. And then I basically just, I think she kind of realized that I was really loving these.
And so she just has continued to send these to me. I probably have about 25 of these [00:48:00] now, like all with these covers that she has made. Um, and so, so in a way, yeah. You know, that has brought my sketchbook practice to this, this other place because there is this kind of collaboration in a way or this conversation with her.
Um, but so for me, my sketchbook practice has always been this, this space of Immense permission, you know, I, I think as artists, we, we all need something like that and it's not sketchbook for it, you know, a sketchbook practice for everyone. But for me, that, you know, and I, and I will say, because I think what's important to say, like, I don't like sit and like, draw in so much in my, you know, like with a pencil or I'm not like drawing the world or, um, you know, I'm not spending, you know, hours and hours on pages in my sketchbook.
It's, it's a, it's a pretty, [00:49:00] um, you know, it's a, it's a practice that's again, connected to who I am as an artist and what interests me. And so tons of collage, um, tons of working with markers, saturated color, um, sometimes fabric. Um, a lot of kind of what I would say almost is like game playing in my sketchbook.
So like when I was talking about earlier, these like inventing different letters, things, I do things like that in my sketchbook, which sometimes make their way into the paintings and sometimes just never do. Um, but I really think of this again, of the sketchbooks as this, and it's, you know, even as I'm talking to you, like I'm imagining like, okay, what is this?
This space in which I am able to do anything I want as an artist, you know, and, and that's how I think about my sketchbook practice. So, um, you know, I share some of the pages sometimes on Instagram. I've done that. Um, [00:50:00] but mostly I, I, they're pretty, they're pretty personal. Um, and it's just. There's a, you know, writing sometimes involved in those pages, so they're really a way in which I think I'm able to kind of process who I am, um, you know, my interior life, but also I can play, I can experiment, I can try new things, I can, you know, You know, but I would say the most important thing, and this is because I do teach a sketchbook class, and the thing I really try to convey to my students is, you know, my sketchbook practice is, I love it.
You know, I love the time. I love the time I, you know, that I spend in these books. It's so much fun. It's so completely pleasurable. And, you know, It's, that's partially why they're so [00:51:00] rich because, because they are, um, they're so enjoyable to me. And so that, that has meant that like, there's stuff that, you know, I just don't do because I don't find it enjoyable.
So like, I think like really thinking about like, okay, here again, like what are the rules that you have for a sketchbook? You know, oftentimes my students will be like, well, but, yeah. Gotta spend hours and hours on this page. And I'm like, no, I mean, if you want to, but you know, I don't want to do that. So I'm not going to do it.
You know, so I mean, I think that that the sketchbook practice has, in a way, it's a kind of ethos, I would say that like has to be present in my practice as an artist. And if I'm if I when I don't keep up on them when they're not active. It usually means my studio practice is not active either. Like, there's definitely, like, they're like the, what is that, the tip of the iceberg.
No, that's not the analogy. There's some, the canary in the coal mine or [00:52:00] something. You know, the indicator of, of the overall health of things for me creatively is the sketchbook practice.
I love that you referred to your sketchbook practices, a space where the artist can do anything. Because we don't often think of artists as having, putting creative limitations or, or like squeezing themselves into some kind of creative process box. I don't think about that very often, but I do love just this unfettered freedom to play.
And the privacy of a book that you can just shut and put away on the shelf if
Yeah. Yeah. And it's, you know, they become You know, like thinking about like, back to what you were saying about like a quilt that's kind of sculptural, you know, they're very sculptural. And, you know, they're, you know, they, when they pile up there, they become these, these, like, you know, these very adamantly physical objects.
So that's kind of an interesting facet of them, bursting at the seams with all of this stuff.
Yeah, it's kind of like a, a [00:53:00] cairn to, isn't that the word cairn? Like on a hike and trail where you have like a stack of stones and that a cairn or yes. Yeah, I don't know
it's like a cairn to, I don't know either, but, but the image y'all got the image. It's a stack of stones of your matrilineal abstraction lineage, right?
It's at least two, two
Yeah. Yep.
You and your mom are working on that together. How does your sketchbook practice fit into your routine? Like on a practical level. You do it in the morning?
I tend to do it in the morning and, but it's also sometimes like when I just need to kind of unwind or. Or if I'm in the middle of working on something in my studio and I feel like I'm kind of stuck, you know, sometimes I'll take a break, um, and, and work in the sketchbook. Sketchbooks are [00:54:00] really huge when I'm traveling, you know, like that's like the, that's kind of like the portable studio in a way.
And so. I think that sketchbooks, at least for me, fit in really well when I'm able to travel because it's, you know, often like if I'm, say if I'm traveling to another country, it's, it's, that's also an experience that's so much about like just really being open to like new, seeing new things. Um, and so that's like, it's a perfect moment to work in a sketchbook.
Um,
How often do you look back?
I don't very often, but Well, I will say one of the things that I have been doing, um, I typically, before the start of a new year, look over the sketchbooks from the previous year and do a kind of summation in whatever the recent sketchbook that I'm working within where I'll kind of go through and, and [00:55:00] In a way, sort of pull out what, what seems to have been like the most important or like kind of fruitful, or maybe also like the ideas that really feel like they haven't been touched upon yet, but seem like maybe they will.
And I'll kind of like. I, I kind of will, like, almost, like, copy the sketchbooks into, it's sort of a strange thing, like, I'll, like, copy little drawings, or I'll kind of, like, little, make little mini versions of other pages, like, sort of like the, the annotation of my, of my own year's previous sketchbook, like, as a way to kind of summarize, like, the visual ideas.
So it's like very kind of folding in on itself in a
You're making an index. A personal
Yeah. Oh, that's exactly what it is. That's exactly what it is. Yeah. That's perfect. So, um, so I try to do it at least once a year because it's, it is really helpful for me to kind of look back and see what I've been thinking about.
We're going to take a pause here for a second.
Okay.
want to ask you next, you know, where has your sketchbook [00:56:00] practice taking you, taking you as a way of just talking about current work or whatever that you're excited about at this moment. Uh, but is there anything else that you want to make sure we squeeze into this conversation before we start wrapping think that sounds, yeah, that sounds good.
This has been so lovely.
Oh, it's been great.
Okay. So, where's your sketchbook practice taken you these days? What are you working on?
So I have been, I've been really focused on, so I've been working with a lot of marker making these, um, expanses is kind, is, is kind of how I'm thinking about like little, like literally striping like stripes and of color, um, that become surfaces. And sometimes they'll get cut up and. They'll get generated into subsequent pages, uh, but they are, like, I'm really thinking a lot right now [00:57:00] in, in the paintings that I'm making.
Uh, I'm thinking a lot about, well, let me back up for one second. So later, maybe about a month or a couple of months ago, I was approached about having an exhibition this summer with, um, a woman who is a landscape painter, you know, literally like. goes out and paints from the landscape. And, uh, I thought it was a really interesting pairing.
And then I started to think about the fact that I less am, I'm working with external landscape, but I'm quite interested in kind of interior landscape or, you know, say the space of our, of our minds or this, you know, and, and how would we even think about sort of conceptualizing that. And that began to dovetail with thinking about just the fact that You know, I just make a lot of surfaces.
Like I've been doing that for decades now. Um, like these expanses and that is also a kind of landscape. And so, um, you know, so I think that [00:58:00] there are some ways in which like I'm playing with that. in the sketchbook as a way to kind of figure out some visual ideas that will head into the paintings. And so there's a lot of kind of striation, but then I'm also making some paintings where I'm kind of like dissolving those edges.
I don't know. It's right now. It's, I have a lot of like, well, and this is of course why I make paintings. Cause like, I have these like, sort of like rough anchor ideas. And then it's like, I have to make them to kind of see them come into existence.
Makes sense to me. You got anything coming down the pike that you're especially interested, uh, excited about?
So yeah, so I am going to be showing in a two person show in July at a gallery in Charlottesville called the Zoo du Monde. And that will be with an artist named Isabel Abbott. So that's the show that I'm really, I'm really working on right now.
Is that the same show you were just describing about [00:59:00] landscape and
Yeah. Yep. Yep. So that's the, those are the things that I'm really thinking about right now.
And I also will have a show in the fall, um, at a gallery outside of Chicago called Studio Break Gallery run by an artist. And that show, I am actually really thinking, that's the show that I'm really thinking about trying to make work that is unstretched because I'm, you know, literally thinking about trying to get the work there and the ease of shipping.
Uh, and right now, again, it's a lot of big open questions. I, I've made some, I've made some things for that show, but have not figured out how to bring them to conclusion.
Well, we're excited to follow along and see how it all turns out for you.
Thank you.
Barbara, if you had to put a first pass answer down on the table for this question, the thesis question of Seamside, how does working with textiles make us more human? What would you say at this point in [01:00:00] your life?
I would say that for me, working with textiles has been the way that I have connected who I am with, with the fact that I exist in this greater network of ideas, of people, of those who have supported me, you know, have those who have gone before me. It's really been the way, I mean, you know, as I said earlier, this kind of light bulb moment of like working this with this material that felt kind of like it did truly feel almost like kind of cosmic, like, and that suddenly this, like, this chain, this like space of conversation opened up between me and all of these women, you know, who came before me, who have helped me become the painter that I am and the person that I am.
So yeah, it's just like, it's, [01:01:00] I love the notion. I mean, it's truly, it's like, it's made me more who I am, more human. Yeah.
the, especially in your work, thinking of the, the long line of artistic and creative matriarchs in your family, a key impulse for you was to break the, the monolith of the canvas and to subdivide it into various parts. And yet you still also want to maintain at the same time, these expanses as you're calling them, right?
You want to have all this room, but not in a way that monopolizes The canvas or the piece. And I love that. I see that room making and that space making in your work.
I love that. I love that.
So I think the next little chunk, I just had this idea, walk around this morning around the neighborhood. Let's talk about the three people you want people, you think people should know more about. This will be off record. So [01:02:00] Megan, you're listening. We're going to cut this, but we'll put links on the show page.
Okay.
And that way I think it'll just help the overall narc narrative arc of our conversation. Okay. So this is off record. This is more just for you and me. Okay. And then what we'll do is we'll go back on record. After that, you name these three people and then we'll say a little thank you wrap up.
Okay. Perfect.
All right. So just between you and me Barbara
All right. And this is good in a way because the first person, I don't know how to pronounce her name. And I was worried about that. So, um, her name is Nour, N O U R, Jouda, J A O U D A, J A Oh, yeah, I
she is, uh, yeah, a Libyan artist, um, based in London. It looks like between London and Cairo. I, anyway, she's someone who I like in the last month or so have come across her work [01:03:00] and I am totally fascinated by it. Textile, but painting and, tassels and I'm seeing this titled work called everything touches everything.
Yeah.
just love that. Thank
I know. And so something that like, I want to find out more of like, she's someone who, you know, like someone who you're like, Oh my gosh, I need to find out more about this artist. I want to see this in person. So, um, oh and they're big
someone I'm really thinking. They're huge. Yeah.
right, maybe I'm like so part of the reason I ask this question is It's just to learn about new artists and I'm like, Oh, maybe I need to get Noor on a seam side. Okay. So we got Noor. I got her link. Who else?
And then, um, I don't know if this woman is on, um, Instagram, but she's some, so do they need to be on No.
Cause I, okay. But this is an art. She might be, I don't know. Her name is Teresa T E R E S A Lanceta L A N C E T A. And she's a Spanish [01:04:00] textile artist who's been at it for a long time.
Um, but someone who just really fascinates me. And also like kind of gets into like, I don't know, the beingness of textile, I think. Just like the way that her work is often written about, like, really fascinates me.
Oh my God. Yeah. These are gorgeous. Oh my God. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
They're amazing.
All right. So I'm gonna leave that tab up and I can come explore later. Go ahead. One more.
And then, um, the artist, this artist definitely is on, is on Instagram. Diana Guevara Macia? Macia? I don't know how you, I got her. Masiya.
Yeah, I love her. Two Chicago based.
Incredible. Oh yeah, I can see why you resonate and
Yeah. Oh, I love these. I really want to see them in person. [01:05:00] I
is getting married. God. I love that title.
know.
Those are great. So we'll get those links. I'll digest them and put them in the episode show notes. And then I'll say in the outro and you can find three artists that Barbara wants you to know about. So it'll work its way in that way. Um, ready for a thank you and a wrap up Yes.
Barbara. I am so thankful for this conversation. I think just on a personal note, I will be thinking quite a bit about my. matrilineal abstraction streak in my family. Well, maybe not abstraction. I'll be thinking about my matrilineal creative streak that has formed my own practice for quite a long time.
Like those images of my mom at the kitchen table, my aunt in the garage, working on the mural. Like none of this is an accident or mistake. And so I thank you [01:06:00] for giving me those two dots. Ponder the connection between. Thank you.
Oh, excellent. Yeah, I, I, I'm thrilled. Thank you so much for having, having me here to talk about all this and it's been such a pleasure.
I should tell you, we'll probably do this again in a year, but I'll tell you about that after we go off. Barbara, thank you so much.
Thank you so much.